Split spec for main hand weapons

Ninjah
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Postby Ninjah » Mar 10, 2017 22:32

I have a Berserker close to 50 and would like to correctly spec him for PvP. So I've done a lot of reading on the subject, but still have a couple questions that I was hoping some of the more experienced players could answer. Some people have told me that split spec doesn't work like it did in Uthgard 1.0, which is were i'm getting most of my information from.

1) The general consensus seems to be to go 39 axe/39 hammer for main hand and 50 left axe. Because left axe determines your ability to bypass defenses, having a lower spec in the main hand weapon spec is ok. However, this will decrease your overall weapon skill and therefore your damage. Is the added weapon skill and damage negligible enough at this point (39 compared to 50) to justify the resist bonus of swapping crush and slash weapons? What about Hibs and Albs that have a neutral resist armor class?

2) Taking in to account the above question, why not spec 34-36 in the main hand to get more points to spend in parry? Or is there a specific advantage of getting your main hand to 50 with item bonuses (39+11)?

3) When I use a hammer style, does the damage output rely on my hammer skill, left axe skill or weapon skill? I tested left axe styles with 0 in axe and 39 in hammer and found that left axe styles hit for about 50% more damage when equipping a hammer vs an axe. This leads me to believe that style damage is based on weapon skill and not based on weapon spec for which that style is tied to. Is this correct?

4) I have also read that it is not worth going split spec until you hit RR5. Can someone explain why?

I appreciate the feedback

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majky666
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Postby majky666 » Mar 11, 2017 11:03

1) there should not be diff between 39+11(composite 50) and 50 spec in dmg or ws.
split spec is good if you dont have acces to prevent flight RA, you still can use hammer positional styles to snare target.

All Alb armors are neutral to slash damage, also alb cloth is neutral to all kinds of melee dmg. All hib armors are neutral to thrust dmg also cloth is neutral to all kinds of melee. So you need recognize your target and switch to correct kind of melee dmg to not have dmg penalty (be neutral or have bonus)

2. If you will group rvr, more parry doesnt have a sense.
Remember, every point in parry spec adds 0.5% chance to parry, so it is on your decision, if it worth spend points in parry.

3. should be determined by LA, but i am not sure about it.

4. I dont know answer, sorry :)
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Ninjah
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Postby Ninjah » Mar 13, 2017 14:49

Thanks for the reply.

I forgot to ask and I think this question is actually the most important. When you perform a style, is the damage type (slash or crush) determined solely from the main hand weapon (hammer or axe)? I would assume so as the whole idea of split speccing would not work if this were not true.

Also, in my first question, I am asking if there is much of a damage difference between 50 and 61 composite hammer skill. If the damage output is only a negligible amount then I could see how switching weapons based on resists would help a lot.

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majky666
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Postby majky666 » Mar 13, 2017 20:56

Ninjah wrote:Thanks for the reply.

I forgot to ask and I think this question is actually the most important. When you perform a style, is the damage type (slash or crush) determined solely from the main hand weapon (hammer or axe)? I would assume so as the whole idea of split speccing would not work if this were not true.

Also, in my first question, I am asking if there is much of a damage difference between 50 and 61 composite hammer skill. If the damage output is only a negligible amount then I could see how switching weapons based on resists would help a lot.

Damage type is affected by kind of weapons (thrust- for example daggers/crush - hammers/slash - swords or axes). So in theory if you use sword in your mainhand and hammer in offhand, you do slash mg with mainhand and crush dmg with lefthand and doesnt matter what kind of styles you use.
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Ninjah
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Postby Ninjah » Mar 17, 2017 16:35

Again thanks for the reply majky666.

So its sounds like you are saying that style damage does not have a damage type (crush, slash, thrust). For example, I have an axe in my main had and I hit a hib bard (Reinforced armor), who is resistant to slash, the following will happen:

Style damage will be unaffected
Main hand damage will be reduced by 10%
Offhand damage will be reduced by 10%

Now lets say i hit that same hib bard, who is also vulnerable crush, and i switch to a hammer in the main hand:

Style damage is the same as above
Main hand damage will be increased by 10%
Offhand damage will be reduced 10%

Essentially if this is correct then all you are receiving is a bonus to your main hand damage, which really is only about 1/3 of the damage a Berseker does.

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majky666
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Postby majky666 » Mar 18, 2017 15:13

here is formula(s) for dmg calculation, so you will have idea, how it works.
http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_Damage
btw 30% malus/bonus looks low for you? imho it is huge difference.
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Kaziera
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Postby Kaziera » Mar 18, 2017 21:48

Ninjah wrote:Again thanks for the reply majky666.

So its sounds like you are saying that style damage does not have a damage type (crush, slash, thrust). For example, I have an axe in my main had and I hit a hib bard (Reinforced armor), who is resistant to slash, the following will happen:

Style damage will be unaffected
Main hand damage will be reduced by 10%
Offhand damage will be reduced by 10%

Now lets say i hit that same hib bard, who is also vulnerable crush, and i switch to a hammer in the main hand:

Style damage is the same as above
Main hand damage will be increased by 10%
Offhand damage will be reduced 10%

Essentially if this is correct then all you are receiving is a bonus to your main hand damage, which really is only about 1/3 of the damage a Berseker does.

You almost got it right. The only thing you forgot, is, that your style dmg is based on your spec into the line the style comes from.

As example: the backsnare from the hammer line will recieve a lot more style dmg bonus when you have 50+11+rr than if you have 39+11+rr.
Last edited by Kaziera on Mar 18, 2017 21:52, edited 1 time in total.

Kaziera
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Postby Kaziera » Mar 18, 2017 21:50

Oh and the Main Hand is always the right hand. This is always the weapon that Deals the Most dmg. No matter if the style line is called left axe or hammer or axe or sword

Deranged
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Postby Deranged » Mar 20, 2017 09:57

Ninjah wrote:3) When I use a hammer style, does the damage output rely on my hammer skill, left axe skill or weapon skill? I tested left axe styles with 0 in axe and 39 in hammer and found that left axe styles hit for about 50% more damage when equipping a hammer vs an axe. This leads me to believe that style damage is based on weapon skill and not based on weapon spec for which that style is tied to. Is this correct?


If you use hammer styles the style dmg relies hammer skill line spec only. Ie. hammer spec 50+11+RR hits harder than 39+11+RR when using hammer back snare. When using LA styles style dmg relies LA spec but base dmg is calculated from main weapon spec which should be composite 51.

Like you said in you post that when you used axe in your main hand when having 0 spec points in axe skill line you hit a lot less than when using hammer in your main hand as you had hammer specced 39.

Ninjah
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Postby Ninjah » Mar 20, 2017 22:12

Deranged wrote:
Ninjah wrote:3) When I use a hammer style, does the damage output rely on my hammer skill, left axe skill or weapon skill? I tested left axe styles with 0 in axe and 39 in hammer and found that left axe styles hit for about 50% more damage when equipping a hammer vs an axe. This leads me to believe that style damage is based on weapon skill and not based on weapon spec for which that style is tied to. Is this correct?


If you use hammer styles the style dmg relies hammer skill line spec only. Ie. hammer spec 50+11+RR hits harder than 39+11+RR when using hammer back snare. When using LA styles style dmg relies LA spec but base dmg is calculated from main weapon spec which should be composite 51.

Like you said in you post that when you used axe in your main hand when having 0 spec points in axe skill line you hit a lot less than when using hammer in your main hand as you had hammer specced 39.


Thanks Deranged, this explains LA style damage calculation more clearly.

You mentioned composite should be 51 for main hand spec (hammer or axe). Is this because at 51 composite main hand spec you will yield max damage, so there is no real use in speccing your main hand higher than? Also why 51, everyone says to spec 39+11 that would have a total of 50 composite (without any RR).

Ninjah
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Postby Ninjah » Mar 20, 2017 23:18

majky666 wrote:here is formula(s) for dmg calculation, so you will have idea, how it works.
http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_Damage
btw 30% malus/bonus looks low for you? imho it is huge difference.


Hi Majky666. I don't want to sound annoying, as I appreciate your input. So let me try to clarify, so I can get the answer i'm looking for.

For the sake of my example I was generalizing that style damage, main hand damage and offhand damage each account for roughly 1/3 of the total damage a berserker does every time he hits an enemy.

In my example I'm saying that the resistance bonus would only apply to main hand damage. The resistance bonus would not apply to style damage and offhand damage. Therefore the maximum damage you can receive from switching from hammer to axe (-10% penalty to a 10% bonus) is a 20% increase to 33% (main hand damage) of your total damage output. This would only net you a 6.6% increase in damage.

However, if this bonus applies to the style damage as well. Then the bonus would be an increase of 20% to 66% of your total damage and a 13.2% increase in overall damage.

So all I was trying to figure out was which scenario is it - 6.6% increase or 13.2% increase? (Again, I'm just generalizing the amount of damage to equal around 1/3. I realize that each damage output varies every swing and I think style damage, Double Frost, is generally more than main hand and offhand damage)

Looking at the damage calculation link you provided, I can see that style damage is a function of base damage. Derange also mentions that LA styles rely on the main hand for its base damage, so it looks like the style damage will receive a bonus or penalty depending on what type of weapon you have equipped (axe or hammer).
Last edited by Ninjah on Mar 22, 2017 15:24, edited 1 time in total.

Deranged
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Postby Deranged » Mar 21, 2017 11:07

Ninjah wrote:
Deranged wrote:
Ninjah wrote:3) When I use a hammer style, does the damage output rely on my hammer skill, left axe skill or weapon skill? I tested left axe styles with 0 in axe and 39 in hammer and found that left axe styles hit for about 50% more damage when equipping a hammer vs an axe. This leads me to believe that style damage is based on weapon skill and not based on weapon spec for which that style is tied to. Is this correct?


If you use hammer styles the style dmg relies hammer skill line spec only. Ie. hammer spec 50+11+RR hits harder than 39+11+RR when using hammer back snare. When using LA styles style dmg relies LA spec but base dmg is calculated from main weapon spec which should be composite 51.

Like you said in you post that when you used axe in your main hand when having 0 spec points in axe skill line you hit a lot less than when using hammer in your main hand as you had hammer specced 39.


Thanks Deranged, this explains LA style damage calculation more clearly.

You mentioned composite should be 51 for main hand spec (hammer or axe). Is this because at 51 composite main hand spec you will yield max damage, so there is no real use in speccing your main hand higher than? Also why 51, everyone says to spec 39+11 that would have a total of 50 composite (without any RR).


Composite 51 comes as RR5 is considered lvl 51. Theres a thread in ign boards about unstyled damage increase when main weapon spec is above 50 ie. 58 with plusses but it's from more recent version of daoc and taken from live servers.

Check it out if you interested: http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/melee ... 452406879/

Taken from that thread (please note that those formulas includes toa and myth bonuses and they can be removed ofc):

unstyled cap damage
DAMAGECAP = [[[[[WEAPONDPS * BASEWEAPONSPEED * 10 ] * (0.94 + BASEWEAPONSPEED * 0.03) + MYTHICALDPS] * TWOHANDBONUS] * TOADAMAGE] / 10 * 3]

a side note here, with the way how mythical dps works. it is better to use a mythical dps myth on a one handed weapon instead of a +8 str myth. and it's better to use a +8 str myth on a slow twohanded weapon.

style damage
STYLE DAMAGE = (BASE + SPEC * GROTH) / 10 * CURRENTSPEED * UNSTYLEDDAMAGE / DAMAGECAP + UNSTYLEDDAMAGE * TOASTYLE

Nowind
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Postby Nowind » Mar 23, 2017 12:36

Kaziera wrote:
As example: the backsnare from the hammer line will recieve a lot more style dmg bonus when you have 50+11+rr than if you have 39+11+rr.


Not sure I fully understand all the variables but:

STYLE DAMAGE = (BASE + SPEC * GROTH) / 10 * CURRENTSPEED * UNSTYLEDDAMAGE / DAMAGECAP + UNSTYLEDDAMAGE

Makes it looks like you would style for less on a -10% target at 50/0 then you would at a +10% target at 39. Pretty much rendering 50/0 obsolete on the spot. Surely that can't be correct though. Unless it is...

Kaziera
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Postby Kaziera » Mar 27, 2017 21:03

If I read this correct, it is the Formula for the total dmg of a style. Though there is missing the dmg variance component. And i have no clue what BASE is.

Nowind
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Postby Nowind » Mar 27, 2017 21:48

BASE is your effective Weapon damage I think. I'm pretty sure the formula just takes the average, not worried about roll variance.


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