Duel Wield

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JayZ
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Postby JayZ » Jan 09, 2017 16:58

Hi all,

Which weapons should be used in which hand? Is it the slowest in left and fastest in right or is it reverse?
Ridlin Midgard 50 Berserker

morry1000
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Postby morry1000 » Jan 09, 2017 18:31

Left Axe is the zerker skill in Midgard, and conventional wisdom originally was slow mainhand (right) fast offhand (left).

However back in the day I remember there was a period where people were using 2 x slow weapons and using celerity and whatnot to boost attack spd.

There is a fair bit involved with the LA mechanics (above is a very simple overview). The 3 realms mechanics (for wielding two weapons) differs from each other.

http://talsyra.tripod.com/daocmechanics ... anics.html

The above article is from 2003, so roughly approximating our patch level, worth looking at.

Schett
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Postby Schett » Feb 09, 2017 17:50

I read that link but some things are still unclear for me.

How do you calculate your off-hand dps?

If you have a slower off-hand it obviously do more damage in your off hand. And if you have a faster off-hand you do more overall dps.
For example if I play without Haste and Cele.

Would I do more DPS overall with Hand Axe with 2.4 speed but 15 dps than I would do with weigthed Bearded Axe with 2.9dps and 16.2 dps? (Below RR5)

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Ilerget
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Postby Ilerget » Feb 09, 2017 19:02

dps = damage per second, you can have fast and slow weaps with same dps, this means that the slow one will need less hits to make the same damage than the fast one
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Schett
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Postby Schett » Feb 09, 2017 19:56

Well I know what dps is...

So to make it more simple to understand.

Damage:
Spiked Hammer: 16,2*4,1 = 66,42 dmg
Cleaver: 16,2*4 = 64,8 dmg
weighted Bearded Axe: 16,2*2,9 = 46,98 dmg
Hand Axe: 15*2,4 = 36 dmg

Swing speed:
Spiked Hammer + Cleaver: (4,1+4,0)/2 = 4,05
Spiked Hammer + WBA: (4,1+2,9)/2 = 3,5
Spiked Hammer + Hand Axe: (4,1+2,4)/2 = 3,25


Main Hand DPS:
Spiked Hammer + Hand Axe: 66,42/3,25 = 20,4 dps
Spiked Hammer + WBA: 66,42/3,5 = 19 dps
Spiked Hammer + Cleaver: 66,42/4,05 = 16,4 dps

So what I'm not sure is if this calculation is right. Do you calculate your off-hand dps the same way as your main hand?
Off-Hand DPS:
Spiked Hammer + Hand Axe: 36/3,25 = 11,1 dps
Spiked Hammer + WBA: 46,98/3,5 = 13,4 dps
Spiked Hammer + Cleaver: 64,8/4,05 = 16 dps

As you see you get higher dps on your main hand weapon by going hand axe, but how much dps do I actully lose on my off hand?
I would also get more styles in with a faster attack speed likewise with damage adds.

So am I right going with Hand Axe for a off-hand if I'm playing without an Aug healer?

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Ilerget
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Postby Ilerget » Feb 09, 2017 20:24

afaik LA spec affect the same both hands. I mean if your spec in LA increase 25% your main weap damage will increase 25% your offhand damage too. If you use weaps with different speed in each hand the attack speed is (mainhand + offhand) / 2, I think. IMHO you will do big hits using slow weaps in both hands but having to wait longer for the next hit.

don't know if I'm helping you :roll:
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Daxt
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Postby Daxt » Feb 10, 2017 01:14

You need to remember that with haste buff and celerity it is super easy to cap attack speed, which means most 'group' berserkers will want the 4.0spd offhand axe 95% of the time.

If you're an SB or ortherwise solo, then generally speaking 'faster' LA's make sense.
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Ormilig
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Postby Ormilig » Feb 14, 2017 13:38

Daxt wrote:You need to remember that with haste buff and celerity it is super easy to cap attack speed, which means most 'group' berserkers will want the 4.0spd offhand axe 95% of the time.


It all depends on your race. All troll for example will only get close to the swing cap, if he has a shamy with capped buffs. Also you should think about it, will you have a 100% (yellow)celerity uptime in fight? I don't think so. A lot of pac Healers will go for the green cele, which will result in a troll not beeing able to reach the swing cap. With 4.2 Mainhand and cleaver offhand that is. One more reason to not roll a Troll and/or pick a faster offhand. Reaching the swingspeed cap is in my opinion a really important aspect to a berserker. A higher attackspeed will result in more procs(especially with Prevent Flight).

I'm using a 4.1Hammer/4.2 Axe mainhand with the 2.9 Offhand as a Dwarf(15Str 10 qui) and i will add in a cleaver to swap when yellow cele is up.
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Daxt
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Postby Daxt » Feb 14, 2017 15:01

Ormilig wrote:
Daxt wrote:You need to remember that with haste buff and celerity it is super easy to cap attack speed, which means most 'group' berserkers will want the 4.0spd offhand axe 95% of the time.


It all depends on your race. All troll for example will only get close to the swing cap, if he has a shamy with capped buffs. Also you should think about it, will you have a 100% (yellow)celerity uptime in fight? I don't think so. A lot of pac Healers will go for the green cele, which will result in a troll not beeing able to reach the swing cap. With 4.2 Mainhand and cleaver offhand that is. One more reason to not roll a Troll and/or pick a faster offhand. Reaching the swingspeed cap is in my opinion a really important aspect to a berserker. A higher attackspeed will result in more procs(especially with Prevent Flight).

I'm using a 4.1Hammer/4.2 Axe mainhand with the 2.9 Offhand as a Dwarf(15Str 10 qui) and i will add in a cleaver to swap when yellow cele is up.



I cannot post the calcs from work but I really do not agree with this and I did the math as well. If you include capped quickness from template, dex/qui buff and the haste buff from the healers - (without even thinking of celerity) going anything but 4.xMH and 4.0 OH just simply puts you above the swing speed and gimps you a lot.

I would only recommend the slower OH if you're either an SB or know for a fact you won't have the healer haste buff and/or cele on regular basis in your groups.
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Murax
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Postby Murax » Feb 14, 2017 15:43

Increasing your Quickness decreases your swing time. Style damage, however, is based on your swing time.
Therefore by decreasing your swing time, you also decrease your style damage, thus reducing frontload.
Over time, increasing your swing speed, adds more damage because the non-style damage comes faster while the style damage remains the same, however each individual hit will do less damage.

As for myself, in an 8v8 scenario I believe frontload to be way more powerful. With celerity you are at, or at least, very near cap swingspeed almost anyway. I want for my berserk to down a target very fast, as you most likely target Caster, thus i heavily preferr frontload. No need for "best damage over time"
For me, Quickness ist totally overrated for a berserk. But thats my preferred playstyle
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Daxt
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Postby Daxt » Feb 14, 2017 17:08

Murax wrote:Increasing your Quickness decreases your swing time. Style damage, however, is based on your swing time.
Therefore by decreasing your swing time, you also decrease your style damage, thus reducing frontload.
Over time, increasing your swing speed, adds more damage because the non-style damage comes faster while the style damage remains the same, however each individual hit will do less damage.

As for myself, in an 8v8 scenario I believe frontload to be way more powerful. With celerity you are at, or at least, very near cap swingspeed almost anyway. I want for my berserk to down a target very fast, as you most likely target Caster, thus i heavily preferr frontload. No need for "best damage over time"
For me, Quickness ist totally overrated for a berserk. But thats my preferred playstyle



You're basically subscribing to the slow MH and OH as well though :D
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Murax
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Postby Murax » Feb 14, 2017 17:27

Just wanted to clear things up a bit and add, that quickness isn´t everything, and far away from being so important as it is stated here.

I do carry a 2.9 OFF with me for the case there is no cele but an enemy pbt, e.g.
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RvR is what happens while you are here complaining

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Ormilig
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Postby Ormilig » Feb 14, 2017 18:51

Daxt wrote:
Ormilig wrote:
Daxt wrote:...
...
I'm using a 4.1Hammer/4.2 Axe mainhand with the 2.9 Offhand as a Dwarf(15Str 10 qui) and i will add in a cleaver to swap when yellow cele is up.



I cannot post the calcs from work but I really do not agree with this and I did the math as well. If you include capped quickness from template, dex/qui buff and the haste buff from the healers - (without even thinking of celerity) going anything but 4.xMH and 4.0 OH just simply puts you above the swing speed and gimps you a lot.

I would only recommend the slower OH if you're either an SB or know for a fact you won't have the healer haste buff and/or cele on regular basis in your groups.


As i said, i'm going to use the cleaver(4.0 speed) with yellow cele. That will cap me as a DWARF, and will get me close to the cap with green cele. A TROLL on the other hand will be stuck at 1.7s with green cele. Which is bad.
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Murax
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Postby Murax » Feb 15, 2017 09:31

The message still stands, that you have less frontload due to your Quickness. Not even considering your Damage loss because of missing strenght compared to Troll. Which will have way more impact then beeing green cele capped.

So I cant agree that this is bad.
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Midgard players don´t just simply play Daoc - we play Daoc to riun the game for Alb and Hib

RvR is what happens while you are here complaining


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