Rejoice! Or not...

Taken from the Xmas wish list thread:


Thread poster: "If you are comfortable comparing the crossbow mechanic with archery..OK. I can't say they are different but I've never heard/read they were the same. So essentially we have a bunch of crossbow spec armsmen running around in weaker armor. I'd like to add to my Uth Wishlist...Plate armor for Rangers. "

DEV RESPONSE (Trishin): "I've found no tests that proves they are different. Obviously class growth rate is considered, but that is already the case on Uthgard too."

Sooooo.... Basically, to the Uth devs, we are all stealth-using Armsmen with a recurve instead of the crossbow.

This is as upsetting as it is telling. The server management actually believes that our class, which revolves around ranged combat, is and has always been on par with a crossbow specced armsman. No wonder archery is in such bad shape

DaytonChambers wrote:Rejoice! Or not...

Taken from the Xmas wish list thread:


Thread poster: "If you are comfortable comparing the crossbow mechanic with archery..OK. I can't say they are different but I've never heard/read they were the same. So essentially we have a bunch of crossbow spec armsmen running around in weaker armor. I'd like to add to my Uth Wishlist...Plate armor for Rangers. "

DEV RESPONSE (Trishin): "I've found no tests that proves they are different. Obviously class growth rate is considered, but that is already the case on Uthgard too."

Sooooo.... Basically, to the Uth devs, we are all stealth-using Armsmen with a recurve instead of the crossbow.

This is as upsetting as it is telling. The server management actually believes that our class, which revolves around ranged combat, is and has always been on par with a crossbow specced armsman. No wonder archery is in such bad shape

Taken from the Prima Guide:
"Crossbow: The crossbow is a very important part of any Armsman's aresnal. The recomended level of specialization is 50% of your level. A single crossbow shot with 50% spec hits harder than your best Polearm style, and it takes very little Endurance to shoot. The benefits for specialization stop around 2/3 of your level, so it serves you best to keep your skill at 50% and use items and/or realm ranks to boost yourself to the 2/3 range. Specialization only grants additional damage per shot.
Longbow: Primary spec. Keep it maxed out using both equipement and specialization points spent in training. Going over your level does not gain you anything.
"Archery 101 The Basics:
To be most effective with your bow( or crossbow),....
Raising your bow spec has an effect on the damage done by your normal shots, exactly the same way melee spec has on melee skills. (half of level=50-100, 0.66 of level is 75-125 and 1+of level is 100-150% damage.)

So what we learn from that is mainly that a single crossbow shot with 50% spec hits harder than your best polearm style.

And I do wonder on which stats the weaponskill(which defines min and max damage) for the crossbow is based. Since dexterity is not the main stat for an Armsman, while it is for the Polearm.
https://web.archive.org/web/20070823022 ... /321.shtml
"crossbows use str/dex equally, all other bows use plain dex"

If the archery mechanic was reverse engineered from the crossbow mechanic, it means that the weaponskill influence on dps is way underated atm.


From French sources: http://forums.jeuxonline.info/showthread.php?t=337939
"I did some tests and neither dex nor strength affect the damages"
"With 1+6 in xbow damage are between 100-200"
"With 1+8 i hit between 125-175 every 2 seconds"
"I confirm that damage is between 100-200 with 1+11 in xbow"
"I had 26 base in xbow and in RvR i was hitting around 250+ on any/all targets"

D'après ce court test posté à l'origine sur ce topic. L'arbalète utilisant à 50% la force et 50% la dextérité, j'ai essayé de calculer le WS avec une arbalète à plusieurs niveaux.

Ca nous donne :

For/dex 62 = 141 ws
For/dex 93 = 211 ws
For/dex 155 = 352 ws

+11 bonus items = ~185 ws

+1 spec/RR = ~8,5 ws

214 str, 172 dex, arbalète 1+11 (RR1) : (782 - (3*8,5)) + 185 = 917 ws
arbalète 12+11 = 1010 ws
"20+11 = 1078 ws
"30+11 = 1163 ws
"50+11 = 1333 ws


Un exemple avec un MdA 8L, avec les mêmes stats :
50+18 = 1392 ws

Buffé :
1392 + for/dex 155 (352 ws) = 1744 ws

Pour comparer avec une spé qui utilise à 100% une stat (2H ou Hast) où le WS peut monter jusqu'à 2000+, le WS de base reste apparemment très proche, mais les buffs for/dex donnent moins de bonus.

Here in 2004 people were doing tests on WS for xbow based on str/dex
Source: http://forums.jeuxonline.info/showthrea ... 939&page=2

If we consider that the test were done in the following way:
For each increase of 2pts of DEX WS increased by X and min damage increased by Y and max damage increased by Z

Since xbow are a str/dex based weapon it means that all these values should be multiplied by 2.
Since instead of for an increase of 2pts of DEX the impact of the increase in dex was actually halved.

Which means that the fix should be that for each 2pts of DEX WS increases by 2*X and min damage increases by 2*Y and max damage by 2*Z.

This could be the fix we have been waiting for, bringing up those damages to what they should be at: (depends on base min dmg)
280-420 base (depending on spec) before resists and from 420 to 630 critical hits in RvR.
560-840 Critical Shot and from 840 to 1260 critical hits in RvR.

While now its more:
170-255 base 255-382 crit
340-610 CSbase and 510 to 915 crit

Then again i am just guessing I don't have a high level scout.
If MIN=minimum base damage dealt
We can see that the upmost max damage that can be dealt in RvR before resist is equivalent to
MIN*1.5*2*1.5 or 4.5*MIN
So if a fix takes place that impact min damage by 30 more damage then the max damage will increase by 135.

WS impacts weapon damage in the damage multiplier:
Damage multiplier =WS/AF which means that it will greatly impact damage on lower AF targets and less so on higher AF targets.

EDPS * (your WS/target AF) * (1-absorb) * slow weap bonus * SPD * 2h weapon bonus

We know that stats affect WS a lot maybe 100 stats points are equivalent to 50 skill points.
A change in the impact of stats for archery on WS would benefit:
1) Ranger (buffs and slowest bow)
2) Scout (slowest bow) and Hunter (buffs)

Requin wrote:https://web.archive.org/web/20070823022 ... /321.shtml
"crossbows use str/dex equally, all other bows use plain dex"

For info, the author did revert to the input and did not modify what was said about crossbow.
Source:
https://web.archive.org/web/20041013021 ... /326.shtml

viewtopic.php?f=&p=451984#p451984

Trishin wrote:Someone would have to test if that is still the case on live. It could potentially be an issue that affects bow damage on Uthgard too, but I would need a developer to look into the code as well to give a proper answer.

I think i did some good fishing, we got a catch!

Hope we will see an improvement!

And...months after the announcement as we roll into the new year - bow damage continues to be ignored and or politically responded to.


Archer, "Are we going to ever see an increase in bow damage on Uthgard as well as vs armor types?"

Developer, "As we discuss archery I feel that it's important to (waves a yellow monkey mitten around the podium) look at the monkey mitten. Do you see it? It's a monkey made out of a mitten. Isn't that amazing?"

Have a nice New Year's, folks.

Gnome wrote:Someone would have to test if that is still the case on live. It could potentially be an issue that affects bow damage on Uthgard too, but I would need a developer to look into the code as well to give a proper answer.

Someone has to take the time to do the tests.

For what it is worth, I can say str has no effect on the displayed weaponskill for bow on a Ranger.

Not saying there could not be something going on behind the scenes but adding or removing str does not change the WS value displayed.

Date of original post to "Rejoice" was "July 12, 2017" and 8+ months later literally nothing has changed lol. A bit premature i think.

Damn that hurt

Ardri wrote:Date of original post to "Rejoice" was "July 12, 2017" and 8+ months later literally nothing has changed lol. A bit premature i think.

And, free or not, this is why it's just so hard to stick with private servers. It's its own little thing and as many folks have said for years on Uthgard, archers aren't valued as a character class by the few people who have time to work this project, which means that playing one in game is near pointless other than for the very small percentage of folks who for whatever reason, are willing to deal with it - nostalgia? Who knows.


And, that is unfortunate and takes advantage of the fact that (a) most of us can't just up and run our own actually accurate SI driven 1.65 server and (b) point proven that a lack of daoc emulator competition breeds for a "who cares" attitude. If there was another emulator and it carried 500 + players for the Europeans (Americans just aren't much of a % for this kind of old gaming), AND, if that server had accurate archery damage, then you would arguably see Uthgard suddenly decide it was important.

Until that day, if ever, it's not going to change.

So, rejoice = false hope, as always.

Though, all that aside, I am thankful the devs at least put most of the game together for this patch level, even if they have made clear decisions to ignore certain classes and the SI zone - perhaps for sake of management.

I just wish we had more than a "this is better than nothing" option.

Komaf wrote:

Ardri wrote:Date of original post to "Rejoice" was "July 12, 2017" and 8+ months later literally nothing has changed lol. A bit premature i think.

And, free or not, this is why it's just so hard to stick with private servers. It's its own little thing and as many folks have said for years on Uthgard, archers aren't valued as a character class by the few people who have time to work this project, which means that playing one in game is near pointless other than for the very small percentage of folks who for whatever reason, are willing to deal with it - nostalgia? Who knows.


And, that is unfortunate and takes advantage of the fact that (a) most of us can't just up and run our own actually accurate SI driven 1.65 server and (b) point proven that a lack of daoc emulator competition breeds for a "who cares" attitude. If there was another emulator and it carried 500 + players for the Europeans (Americans just aren't much of a % for this kind of old gaming), AND, if that server had accurate archery damage, then you would arguably see Uthgard suddenly decide it was important.

Until that day, if ever, it's not going to change.

So, rejoice = false hope, as always.

Though, all that aside, I am thankful the devs at least put most of the game together for this patch level, even if they have made clear decisions to ignore certain classes and the SI zone - perhaps for sake of management.

I just wish we had more than a "this is better than nothing" option.

I'm not even sure where to begin pointing out you are wrong. Just be assured that we do care about accuracy, fixing bugs, etc.

But seriously.. sigh..

It's frustrating to see people accuse the staff of not caring about archers or being biased against the class. I can tell you as a player who whined about archery being under-powered for years: The staff do care, they do fix bugs, and they do test formulas to ensure accuracy.

Archers suck in this patch. The days of archers sniping casters who forget to cast bubble while they sit to regen mana were mostly over by the time Shrouded Isles came out. That's just the way it is.

I found a new source about crossbow damage, which this time says 25% dexterity and 75% strength based. (although it's past 1.65)
http://www.valmerwolf.com/doc/tabelle.h ... esperienza
just Ctrl+F "Crossbows"