Hybrid spec in RvR

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Garlak
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Postby Garlak » Jan 24, 2017 16:39

Thinking about going hybrid for the back snare in RvR. I'm aware Paladins are not an optimal choice for Group RvR due to the lack of det, but since I decided to go with one anyways, I might as well make the best of it. The role of a Paladin in RvR is that of a peeler/guarder, so the combination of slam and back snare from a hybrid spec seem to be more useful than either the better individual defenses (pure slash) and higher damage (pure 2h) I would miss out on. Spec would be something like:

45 Chants
42 Shield
39 Two-Handed
24 Slash

Early RA Progression wouild be LW > Purge > Faith Healing.

As far as I can tell, this would be the best group RvR spec without compromising my ability to be a tank for farming/raiding activities. Due to how slash spec only determines minimum, but not maximum damage when using 2h, this spec deals about 85% of the base damage a full 2h spec does (the loss in 2h bonus already included), so it might even be able to put some pressure on offtanks as a bonus. I'd appreciate your thoughts, whether they are about the viability of hybrid spec in general or how my spec could be improved (I could play around with more/less chants/slash, especially).

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pzeub
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Postby pzeub » Jan 25, 2017 12:57

Garlak wrote:Thinking about going hybrid for the back snare in RvR. I'm aware Paladins are not an optimal choice for Group RvR due to the lack of det, but since I decided to go with one anyways, I might as well make the best of it. The role of a Paladin in RvR is that of a peeler/guarder, so the combination of slam and back snare from a hybrid spec seem to be more useful than either the better individual defenses (pure slash) and higher damage (pure 2h) I would miss out on. Spec would be something like:

45 Chants
42 Shield
39 Two-Handed
24 Slash

Early RA Progression wouild be LW > Purge > Faith Healing.

As far as I can tell, this would be the best group RvR spec without compromising my ability to be a tank for farming/raiding activities. Due to how slash spec only determines minimum, but not maximum damage when using 2h, this spec deals about 85% of the base damage a full 2h spec does (the loss in 2h bonus already included), so it might even be able to put some pressure on offtanks as a bonus. I'd appreciate your thoughts, whether they are about the viability of hybrid spec in general or how my spec could be improved (I could play around with more/less chants/slash, especially).


From my perspective, Paladins are or will be usefull in RvR groups in for the resists chants where groups don't have friars.
For this reason, you REALLY need 48 in chants to have +20% cold AND +20% heat (say hi to enchanters).
Another advantage as having a paladin, is saving pots timer by giving end to the people at the back (caster).

Now, we all know how bad is paladin's weaponskill. If you think about the targets you are going to hit (tanks mostly), they all have quiet good evade skills (BM,savage 360 evade,zerk) or even blocking skills (warrior and hero). You just won't hit them with 39 in your main skill. Add to this the huge damage variation you will get, and this will highlight the bad mix it would be.

Furthermore, the arms is way better at this job so I would advise you not to think about 2h on a pally.

I was looking at the charplan many times for a pally, many people would advise you (and I do also) to go 48 chants, 44 thrust (second best peel of albion after arms one) rest in shield (at least 42) and parry.

As you may guess, this explains two things:
- You have to go AT ;
- There is a huge lack of paladin on the realm.

If you follow my advise, please note that you would require 87 points of AT. As you'll get 77 from slash, you will need "just" 10 points from chants AT.

Which means, go shield and crush 'till 20 (AT will give you end regen at level 8 and crush is low consumption end mode ), then you can respec and put as much points in chants as you want to.

I would still advise you to go AT until the end (slightly better parry rate), but tbh it's the REALLY hard way.

Cheers

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onizukasensei
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Postby onizukasensei » Jan 25, 2017 13:50

pzeub wrote:From my perspective, Paladins are or will be usefull in RvR groups in for the resists chants where groups don't have friars.
For this reason, you REALLY need 48 in chants to have +20% cold AND +20% heat (say hi to enchanters).
Another advantage as having a paladin, is saving pots timer by giving end to the people at the back (caster).

Now, we all know how bad is paladin's weaponskill. If you think about the targets you are going to hit (tanks mostly), they all have quiet good evade skills (BM,savage 360 evade,zerk) or even blocking skills (warrior and hero). You just won't hit them with 39 in your main skill. Add to this the huge damage variation you will get, and this will highlight the bad mix it would be.

Furthermore, the arms is way better at this job so I would advise you not to think about 2h on a pally.

I was looking at the charplan many times for a pally, many people would advise you (and I do also) to go 48 chants, 44 thrust (second best peel of albion after arms one) rest in shield (at least 42) and parry.

As you may guess, this explains two things:
- You have to go AT ;
- There is a huge lack of paladin on the realm.

If you follow my advise, please note that you would require 87 points of AT. As you'll get 77 from slash, you will need "just" 10 points from chants AT.

Which means, go shield and crush 'till 20 (AT will give you end regen at level 8 and crush is low consumption end mode ), then you can respec and put as much points in chants as you want to.

I would still advise you to go AT until the end (slightly better parry rate), but tbh it's the REALLY hard way.

Cheers


You have established some good points in your post.
I just want to add a few things as well.
We all know that Paladins aren't there to be damage dealers, low WS and damage output compared to the dedicated Damage dealers is more than noticeable.
Paladins fill the role of support, assist and peel.
Most of the times a Paladin will run around twisting Chants, switch Guard, hinder / slam and occasionally A-train.

Your advice for 48 Chants is good IF the given group(s) is determined to run with resists in mind.
Otherwise a Paladin's role is just to fill the aforementioned needs.

2H is suggested ONLY if given Paladin is set to run in small man / duo / trio, otherwise its a wasted spec.

My suggestion is to start with a group friendly spec and respec at higher RR to 2H.
Chants 46 - 48 (depends if groups actually care for the extra resists, since we won't see many serious caster groups @1.65)
Shield 42
Weapon 39 (Composite 51 Weapon skill @ RR2) - 44 (For snare thrust style)
Parry rest of points

Just a hint regarding Thrust spec and Snare style.
Snare comes as a second in chain style which is after a detaunt opening (Tranquilize).
Tranquilize has a no Attack Bonus, which many times may see it miss.

Personally I prefer level 29 Slash style, Side Snare (which if find very easy to land it).

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Garlak
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Postby Garlak » Jan 25, 2017 15:12

Thanks for your extensive repiles, appreciate it!

From my perspective, Paladins are or will be usefull in RvR groups in for the resists chants where groups don't have friars.
For this reason, you REALLY need 48 in chants to have +20% cold AND +20% heat (say hi to enchanters).


Running resists is actually a very good point I didn't consider. But aren't enchanters running a 50% heat debuff anyways? Is the paladin chant immune to this?

I was looking at the charplan many times for a pally, many people would advise you (and I do also) to go 48 chants, 44 thrust (second best peel of albion after arms one) rest in shield (at least 42) and parry.

As you may guess, this explains two things:
- You have to go AT ;
- There is a huge lack of paladin on the realm.

If you follow my advise, please note that you would require 87 points of AT. As you'll get 77 from slash, you will need "just" 10 points from chants AT.


From what I understand, points gained by autotrain cannot be respecced, so I can't gain anything out of autotraining slash if I went thrust. If my charplaner is correct, the spec you suggest is impossible even with full chants autotrain.

Now, we all know how bad is paladin's weaponskill. If you think about the targets you are going to hit (tanks mostly), they all have quiet good evade skills (BM,savage 360 evade,zerk) or even blocking skills (warrior and hero). You just won't hit them with 39 in your main skill. Add to this the huge damage variation you will get, and this will highlight the bad mix it would be.


39 two-handed should have the same WS as most other paladin specs, since slash does not impact 2h weapon skill at all. Am I missing something? Are you referring to my 1h weapon skill on the hybrid spec? It would be crap, I agree, but attacking with a 1h weapon would only occur while guarding and attacking a tank that is stun immune (if not guarding = 2h, if not stun immune = slam).

Also, to clarify: I would not spec 39 two-handed for damage, my train of thought was that a back snare might be easier to land than a side snare (on moving targets), especially since paladins have low WS and attacks from behind cannot be blocked or parried.

My suggestion is to start with a group friendly spec and respec at higher RR to 2H.


I don't consider a pure 2h spec at all, regardless of RR. I'd never give up slam for more damage on a paladin. The whole point of a hybrid spec would be to be a better peeler. If a pure one-handed spec would be more group friendly, there's no reason for me to go hybrid either (I'm convinced a pure one-handed spec is better solo).

By the way, I don't think I can stand autotraining chants beyond 20 at most. I don't have unlimited time to play DAoC sadly, and classic DAoC has a slow XP rate, my choice to play a paladin is partially because of how useful and fun they are while leveling. I'd rather play an armsman than a paladin with full autotrain.

Just a hint regarding Thrust spec and Snare style.
Snare comes as a second in chain style which is after a detaunt opening (Tranquilize).
Tranquilize has a no Attack Bonus, which many times may see it miss.

Personally I prefer level 29 Slash style, Side Snare (which if find very easy to land it).


Also a fair point. I used to play a warden sometime on live (before they had shield spec) and used a side snare for peeling. It went OK, though I still would prefer a rear snare personally.
Last edited by Garlak on Jan 25, 2017 15:44, edited 1 time in total.

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pzeub
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Postby pzeub » Jan 25, 2017 15:33

onizukasensei wrote:Just a hint regarding Thrust spec and Snare style.
Snare comes as a second in chain style which is after a detaunt opening (Tranquilize).
Tranquilize has a no Attack Bonus, which many times may see it miss.

Personally I prefer level 29 Slash style, Side Snare (which if find very easy to land it).


The miss rate difference between stun + peel or stun + detaunt + peel is 9.8%.

Which means you'll see the difference every 10 opponents. And i'm quiete sure you'll miss at least 1 over 10 side peel ;)

Take into account the WS increase between 39 and 44 in weapon, I would still say thrust is way better :-P

[EDIT] 5 level in weapon spec is a win of 2% chance to hit thanks to the weaponskill.

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Postby pzeub » Jan 26, 2017 01:18

I've been completly wrong about AT points.

For 44 piercing 42 shield, you need AT chants until level 48 and you could only have 47 in chants.
For 39 slash 48 chants 42 shield, you don't need any AT.
44 slash 48 chants 42 shields requires AT until level 40 in chants and slash.

My apologies.

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Postby Papa_Tizlak » Jan 26, 2017 08:41

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZxpKMAfJN0

Think I'll just be going this spec.

I don't feel like thrust is worthwhile; 44 points just to get a glorified root on the 2nd ability in a chain just isn't a good idea, no matter how people want to cut it. It's paper DAOC, it's not practical. Even if you hit both abilities in the chain on the first try, you're still wasting a colossal amount of time just launching it, and depriving your group of other CC and supplemental damage.

Even in this video he's smashing people in chain for 150+ damage, and quickly.

That's a lot of damage that adds up fast.

People see arms 2h pole damage and think "OH GEE WOW THAT'S A LOT.", when in reality, they miss just as much, and the long wind up time means that their sustained pressure isn't as good as people want to make it out to be.

Look at any Uth Armsman video, and even with full template completed, they're hitting for 220-250 damage per swing. That's only 100 damage more in some cases, and its incredibly slow.

Nah suckka, I'll be sticking with my slash.

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Thalien
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Postby Thalien » Jan 26, 2017 13:46

Thrust paladin looks incredible gay :-P
Fabienne - Blademaster
Junia - Bard
Audrina - Ench
-----
Zoe - Sorc
Stella - Pala
Devon - Scout

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Garlak
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Postby Garlak » Jan 26, 2017 14:20

Thalien wrote:Thrust paladin looks incredible gay :-P


So you'd recommend 50 2h, 39 crush for the most heterosexual look possible?

I've been completly wrong about AT points.

For 44 piercing 42 shield, you need AT chants until level 48 and you could only have 47 in chants.
For 39 slash 48 chants 42 shield, you don't need any AT.
44 slash 48 chants 42 shields requires AT until level 40 in chants and slash.

My apologies.


No worries, I noticed in time. I Don't think 44 slash is worth ATing chants under any circumstances. Slash beyond 39 does almost nothing, not even in terms of defense penetration.

I don't feel like thrust is worthwhile; 44 points just to get a glorified root on the 2nd ability in a chain just isn't a good idea, no matter how people want to cut it. It's paper DAOC, it's not practical.


This is what I would have thought, too, but I'm not sure it's really paper DAoC. People used 44 thrust before and some recommend it. That being said, I can't really imagine myself preferring it over slash's side snare though, let alone a back snare.

Look at any Uth Armsman video, and even with full template completed, they're hitting for 220-250 damage per swing. That's only 100 damage more in some cases, and its incredibly slow.


Unless Uthgard got the melee formulas wrong, 2h specs (like polearm) do indeed deal significantly more damage than 1h specs, 35,5% more on a 50 spec, to be precise. That's dps, not damage per swing, mind you. Before Style growth rates, too. Add to that the inherently higher damage table of an armsman and you have a very noticeable difference. If you don't like the slow swing speed of typical 2h weapons, you could just use the fastest polearm/greatsword available and trade burst damage for quicker peeling (I would).

I'm not saying Paladins are bad (I chose to play one, after all), or even strictly worse than armsmen in groups, but the damage difference between the two should be anything but small, especially when comparing pole vs slash.

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Postby Papa_Tizlak » Jan 26, 2017 16:05

Garlak wrote:Unless Uthgard got the melee formulas wrong, 2h specs (like polearm) do indeed deal significantly more damage than 1h specs, 35,5% more on a 50 spec, to be precise. That's dps, not damage per swing, mind you. Before Style growth rates, too. Add to that the inherently higher damage table of an armsman and you have a very noticeable difference. If you don't like the slow swing speed of typical 2h weapons, you could just use the fastest polearm/greatsword available and trade burst damage for quicker peeling (I would).

I'm not saying Paladins are bad (I chose to play one, after all), or even strictly worse than armsmen in groups, but the damage difference between the two should be anything but small, especially when comparing pole vs slash.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2dpQ0r0qQ8

Dunno, but this is a fully deceked our armsman on Uthgard server; you can see the numbers whenever he hits someone with his pole, and they're not going over 250 in his videos unless he gets an amazing crit.

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Garlak
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Postby Garlak » Jan 26, 2017 16:32

Papa_Tizlak wrote:
Garlak wrote:Unless Uthgard got the melee formulas wrong, 2h specs (like polearm) do indeed deal significantly more damage than 1h specs, 35,5% more on a 50 spec, to be precise. That's dps, not damage per swing, mind you. Before Style growth rates, too. Add to that the inherently higher damage table of an armsman and you have a very noticeable difference. If you don't like the slow swing speed of typical 2h weapons, you could just use the fastest polearm/greatsword available and trade burst damage for quicker peeling (I would).

I'm not saying Paladins are bad (I chose to play one, after all), or even strictly worse than armsmen in groups, but the damage difference between the two should be anything but small, especially when comparing pole vs slash.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2dpQ0r0qQ8

Dunno, but this is a fully deceked our armsman on Uthgard server; you can see the numbers whenever he hits someone with his pole, and they're not going over 250 in his videos unless he gets an amazing crit.


Of course it is highly subjective whether damage difference is great or not, but since the formulas are avaiable nowadays, we can get accurate numbers.

-Armsman's damage table is 22 vs the Paladin's 19, which translates to about 15,7% more damage.
-2h bonus is 10% + 0,5% per spec point, which is 40,5% more damage at 50+11

Multiplied, this translates to 1,157*1,450 = 1,625 the damage (rounded). So a polearmsman should deal 62,5% more base damage over time than a paladin with slash. That is not including the armsman's higher strength value (primary vs tertiary stat), better defense penetration or (likely) higher style damage. On the other hand, this also means that a paladin swinging away with his 1h weapon still deals about 62% of the base damage an armsman does, damage add chant not included, which is still a significant amount. Whether that's a lot or not is obviously a matter of perspective/expectation.

If you are interested, you can check the formulas here:
http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_Damage

That being said, I didn't intend to say your numbers were wrong. We should keep in mind that the solo pally video was shot back in the day, while the armsman vid is from about a decade after - many people probably didn't have capped melee resists back then, let alone maxed AF (100q, charges). Also, 250 is about 66,7% more than 150, so the numbers aren't that far off.

The point I'm trying to make here is that damage should not be what we're talking about when discussing paladin specs for group RvR. It should be the effectiveness at what paladins do best, which is support via chants and, most of all, peeling. Do we peel as good as an armsman? No, not quite (IMO, no class in any realm does). I just don't think that's a reason not to try optimizing a build in that regard.

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pzeub
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Postby pzeub » Jan 27, 2017 11:37

Papa_Tizlak wrote:
Garlak wrote:Unless Uthgard got the melee formulas wrong, 2h specs (like polearm) do indeed deal significantly more damage than 1h specs, 35,5% more on a 50 spec, to be precise. That's dps, not damage per swing, mind you. Before Style growth rates, too. Add to that the inherently higher damage table of an armsman and you have a very noticeable difference. If you don't like the slow swing speed of typical 2h weapons, you could just use the fastest polearm/greatsword available and trade burst damage for quicker peeling (I would).

I'm not saying Paladins are bad (I chose to play one, after all), or even strictly worse than armsmen in groups, but the damage difference between the two should be anything but small, especially when comparing pole vs slash.




Dunno, but this is a fully deceked our armsman on Uthgard server; you can see the numbers whenever he hits someone with his pole, and they're not going over 250 in his videos unless he gets an amazing crit.


On the videos you are referring to, the player has a very low speed weapon, that's the reason why he does "only" 250 dmg.
Furthermore, please not that the lowest speed hast is dps 15.0.

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Postby Nunki » Feb 22, 2017 13:06

Papa_Tizlak wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZxpKMAfJN0
I don't feel like thrust is worthwhile; 44 points just to get a glorified root on the 2nd ability in a chain just isn't a good idea, no matter how people want to cut it. It's paper DAOC, it's not practical. Even if you hit both abilities in the chain on the first try, you're still wasting a colossal amount of time just launching it, and depriving your group of other CC and supplemental damage.

So you say it is theoretically good, but you never tried? :D
44 Thrust is an amazing peel (practically, 2 hits are acceptable for 27 sec snare, Savages are a problem :P ).
We have a 44 thrust pala in our guild pug and it works great!

I don't want to miss that Slam/Peel-Bot at any time (Cleric). ;)
Which CC would you use to stop a Det5 tank, beside Desease?
Peel is the best counter for such situations. ;)

Ofc play whats making fun, but if you want to have any 8x8 viability, 44 thrust is the way to go.
Not saying that Slash is unplayable in 8x8, but there will be 1 major utility missing.

Greetings

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Raifs
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Postby Raifs » Feb 23, 2017 11:21

If you want to participate in Group RvR on your Paladin go

44 Thrust or 39 Two Handed

Always go for 42 Shield and at least 47 Chants

If you can endure the AT torture up to level 40 that would be

44 Thrust
42 Shield
47 Chants

+ 27 second snare
+ can snare easier while guarding
- garbage hit rate

or

21 Slash
39 Two Handed
42 Shield
48 Chants

+ easier time peeling multiple opponents
+ slightly better damage
- only side snare to peel while guarding

The damage comparison using videos from 2003 in which enemies don't even have capped melee resists and a level 49 armsman hitting people in templates with spec charges in 2012 is beyond stupid.


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