friar?

mikkyo
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Postby mikkyo » Jun 28, 2017 22:28

how is the friar on this server?

as solo rvr char? especially against stealther?

as farmchar accepted?

djegu
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Postby djegu » Jun 28, 2017 23:55

mikkyo wrote:how is the friar on this server?

as solo rvr char? especially against stealther?

as farmchar accepted?


1- no heal proc damage, but still enjoyable

2- SB have D/Q charge which make them almost unkillable on 1vs1 (they hit harder than you and evade more)
- NS it's quite hard at lower RR but as soon as you get purge and MoP and Dodger you can defeat them.

Imo friar is the perfect mdps smallman char with, heal, buff, nice melee damage and resist.
in Zerg you are pretty useless because it's a very poor peeler (no det, leather, only side kick snare) but you are a good assist to Merc.
in keeps defence you can cure and heal your friends, in keeps attack it's normal you can hit the door, back up heal a bit, you can take care of hunter/ranger respawn pretty good.

3- I would reroll Necro for farming it's faster

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Requin
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Postby Requin » Jun 29, 2017 13:32

I think Friar 50 is better at chaining oj/red than necro deathsight 50.
Solo RvR against stealther no idea, I just know that SB will hit leather with a bonus, while you have crush damage its neutral, better than thrust damage against SB. NS are vulnerable to crush.
Stealthers have Str/Con Debuff, since your damage is 100% based on DEX its okay for you.
You have damage table of 20 (same as savage) while stealthers are on 18.

The theory is good, but in practice, you will almost never see them coming, resulting in starting the fight almost always 50% hp vs 100% hp. You are slowed, you are diseased, you are debuffed (str/con) and poisoned!

You might be able to kill them in 4-6 hits, but do you have time to place those hits?

I think its worth a try :D
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Faltain
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Postby Faltain » Jul 02, 2017 22:13

Requin wrote:I think Friar 50 is better at chaining oj/red than necro deathsight 50.


Uh yeah... no way Jose. You must be in garbage gear on the Necro or fighting the wrong (non-spirit weak) mobs because in no way is a Friar remotely as good at chain killing orange/reds then a Necro. Mana + Lifetap > anything a Friar can do. You may make a case for higher Realm Rank with max dodger + mastery of Parry/Pain or something, but as a Realm Rank nothing ... nah, Necro is way superior farm class. (That's why half the realm rolled one).

Solo RvR against stealther no idea, I just know that SB will hit leather with a bonus, while you have crush damage its neutral, better than thrust damage against SB. NS are vulnerable to crush.
Stealthers have Str/Con Debuff, since your damage is 100% based on DEX its okay for you.
You have damage table of 20 (same as savage) while stealthers are on 18.

The theory is good, but in practice, you will almost never see them coming, resulting in starting the fight almost always 50% hp vs 100% hp. You are slowed, you are diseased, you are debuffed (str/con) and poisoned!

You might be able to kill them in 4-6 hits, but do you have time to place those hits?

I think its worth a try :D


At higher Realm Ranks (Dodger, Purge, Ignore Pain + Mastery of Pain/Parry) I'd put $ on the Friar winning most fights 1vs1 (except against something like a Bonedancer or anything that can kite him/her reliably). Lack of an anytime stun/snare or access to a disease means you can't outdamage a Bonedancers instant lifetaps (I speak from experience on this on Uthgard as a Friar).

The few stealthers I fought 1vs1 in Darkness Falls I wrecked, (but they were likely not buffed at the time). Friar self buffs make a HUGE difference against someone without them.
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Faltain
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Postby Faltain » Jul 02, 2017 22:22

mikkyo wrote:how is the friar on this server?

as solo rvr char? especially against stealther?

as farmchar accepted?


You aren't "meta" so a Cleric will always get a group before you for heals, and a Mercenary or Armsman will always get a group before you melee wise because of Determination. Lack of the heal proc really hurts here, (it'd be great if Friars had access to it + a cure nearsight for instance...)

But yeah, as it stands, you don't bring anything to a group that any of those aforementioned classes don't already bring, and since your class specific/defining ability is the group heal in rejuve (which is utter garbage; it costs huge amounts of mana for negligible and worthless heal amounts), all you really end up being is a melee on the assist train for a group taking pity on you, (or a group of friends who would be better off with any of those other classes in most situations to be honest).

Farm character -- you can solo reds/low purples in DF reliably with a few ranks of Dodger, but overall you're best farming bet is a Necromancer with Deathsight focus.

Tl;dr -- if you want to heal, make a Cleric. If you want to melee, make a Mercenary or Armsman. For farming, make a Necro.

It's a good 1vs1 class thanks to self-buffs, but an equivalent higher realm ranked enemy tank (Warrior or Hero) should always in theory beat a Friar, as should a life-tapping Bonedancer or anything capable of kiting. No snare or stun means once you're engaged, (even with perma sprinting), getting away to heal yourself against most enemies is impossible.
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Requin
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Postby Requin » Jul 03, 2017 10:31

Friar has resists:
COLD (vs Runemaster, vs Eldritch)
HEAT (vs Enchanter vs Mentalist vs Eldritch)
MATTER (vs Shaman, vs snare DRUID)

The other one who has those is the Paladin. If your group does not have AoM it could be nice to run with both a cleric and a friar.
Friar vs Cleric:
Friar has evade V, dodger RA, Ignore Pain
Cleric has Mastery of the Art and Wild Healing

So while the Cleric is more efficient at Healing, the Friar is more defensive.
Against the Melee train of midgard or the spell spam of hibernia i think Friar stands more chance than the Cleric.
A cool spec for friar could be 44 Heal 37 Buff 21 staff 24 Parry.
For starting stats I suggest +10 DEX +10 PIETY +10 CON
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djegu
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Postby djegu » Jul 03, 2017 17:49

Also friar resist stack with paladin resist (we did a try the other night)

Faltain
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Postby Faltain » Jul 04, 2017 00:58

Requin wrote:Friar has resists:
COLD (vs Runemaster, vs Eldritch)
HEAT (vs Enchanter vs Mentalist vs Eldritch)
MATTER (vs Shaman, vs snare DRUID)


The resists are one of the *very* few things that a Friar brings to the table over a Cleric (or a Merc/Arms), but aren't one of those absolutely "omg we need a Friar in this group stat!" things like Minstrel speed or Cleric spread heals/instant heals/spec buffs/Sorc Mez. None of the (likely) spreadsheeting-premades felt it was such a huge deal that they purposefully had to have someone roll one to make sure they had it, (at least from what I was seeing).

The other one who has those is the Paladin. If your group does not have AoM it could be nice to run with both a cleric and a friar.


2 Clerics gives you access to 2 bunkers of faith, 2 batteries of life (if they want it), spreadheals, 4 instant heals, and the ability to have more spec buffs for groupmates. Not to mention a Cleric has a ranged casted stun and a PBAOE mez... Friar has to hit a tricky to land side snare for any sort of CC aid... that's a HUGE benefit Clerics have, the ability to (occasionally) deal with their attackers by themselves.

Paladin gives you shield slam (anytime stun) on top of endurance chant AND the resists, (and they are flexible with them and can twist whichever resists are needed depending on the fight). It sucks the range is so low on the Endurance chant... otherwise at the very least without Determination they'd be doing SOMETHING to help the group while being rooted after mez wears off. A Friar can toss out heals, sure... but if they are nearsighted there goes that idea.

Paladins also have Tranquilize-Wyvern chain for a 100% root... (aka way more reliable CC then a Friar brings). Even without the defensive realm abilities Paladin's are pretty damn tanky too.

Friar vs Cleric:
Friar has evade V, dodger RA, Ignore Pain
Cleric has Mastery of the Art and Wild Healing


Those realm abilities make a friar great at solo against melee basically. Enemies aren't going to worry about you; they'll just CC you and burn you down when they get the Clerics/Sorc/Minstrel out of the way and outdamage any heals you may toss out. If they're smart and good, they'll Nearsight you to boot, making you effectively a CCed half-assed melee character waiting to get gang-banged by their melee.

So while the Cleric is more efficient at Healing, the Friar is more defensive.
Against the Melee train of midgard or the spell spam of hibernia i think Friar stands more chance than the Cleric.


The Cleric is way more efficient at healing, the Friar is a bummy non-determination (easily CCable) melee with baseline buffs and lackluster heals (and if you spec Heals on a Friar you'd be better off as a Cleric.)

Mid will just CC/nearsight you till their melee train gets on you, and Hib will do the same only nuke you from range.

A cool spec for friar could be 44 Heal 37 Buff 21 staff 24 Parry.
For starting stats I suggest +10 DEX +10 PIETY +10 CON


Going 44 heal on a Friar (to me) seems insane. Roll a Cleric at that point. The group heal is terrible: it drains a TON of mana, the ticks are abysmal and isn't something you can rely on in a heated fight to turn the tide. It's more of an "top everyone off" kind of thing, AKA not worth the points.

I wouldn't (personally) go lower then 45 enhance on a Friar. Those last two shields (self AF + absorb) make a large difference in survivability. Plus you get higher versions of the resists you touted earlier as being useful, (and could go 46 for the last Heat if you'd like). I know some Friars swear by going 48 enhance but those extra points always felt more valuable to me in parry. You're going to have high Dex anyways, may as well put some points into parry... You can stop at 29 staff if you want, or go 34 for holy staff and to help with variance, (the Taunt is your anytime though, holy staff sucks in terms of endo/damage ratio).

45 enhance/34 staff/29 parry/19 rejuve or ... 48 enhance/35 staff/20 parry/20 rejuve --- both leave you with 1 point leftover and will avail you much much better then going high rejuve on a Friar.
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Colqhoun
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Postby Colqhoun » Jul 04, 2017 18:54

A lot of good points are made by the previous poster but his final spec is not anything I would do. A lot here post that "if you want to heal play cleric" in regards to friar rejuv spec. To me friars are hybrids and simply having the ability to heal really helps. I am not trying to heal casters getting tank trained, I'm trying to heal allies in a small man or whatever is in my range when I'm rooted, also myself. Mostly in an 8 man a friar tank trains, cures disease, and tries to bail out clerics in an emergency.

It is my opinion that parry is a near worthless spec for a friar because you should not have any trouble at all with any stealther. I have only lost twice to stealthers and I was RR2 at the time. 25 Rejuv gives you a good spec heal to save yourself and others in small man fights and be of some use when rooted. However I would never go below 48 enhance in any friar spec on this server. The red haste is completely overpowering in an solo fight, the red heat/cold resists may get you some 8 man groups if you are half decent and also save your butt against mid casters. There are many out there that think some parry is more important than those 2 things and they are wrong, flat out wrong.

A friar is a bad solo character because you have no speed and no stealth. Your 8 man groups will be few and far between. A friar shines in small man action and to be most effective you need some heals, 7 rejuv does not cut it.

I spec 48 enh 37 staff 25 rejuv 6 parry

djegu
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Postby djegu » Jul 04, 2017 20:10

Colqhoun wrote:A lot of good points are made by the previous poster but his final spec is not anything I would do. A lot here post that "if you want to heal play cleric" in regards to friar rejuv spec. To me friars are hybrids and simply having the ability to heal really helps. I am not trying to heal casters getting tank trained, I'm trying to heal allies in a small man or whatever is in my range when I'm rooted, also myself. Mostly in an 8 man a friar tank trains, cures disease, and tries to bail out clerics in an emergency.

It is my opinion that parry is a near worthless spec for a friar because you should not have any trouble at all with any stealther. I have only lost twice to stealthers and I was RR2 at the time. 25 Rejuv gives you a good spec heal to save yourself and others in small man fights and be of some use when rooted. However I would never go below 48 enhance in any friar spec on this server. The red haste is completely overpowering in an solo fight, the red heat/cold resists may get you some 8 man groups if you are half decent and also save your butt against mid casters. There are many out there that think some parry is more important than those 2 things and they are wrong, flat out wrong.

A friar is a bad solo character because you have no speed and no stealth. Your 8 man groups will be few and far between. A friar shines in small man action and to be most effective you need some heals, 7 rejuv does not cut it.

I spec 48 enh 37 staff 25 rejuv 6 parry


Great summary here, too bad wasn't posted here earlier, I learned that kind of things at lvl 50 when I have to found respec stone for a better utility !

Faltain
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Postby Faltain » Jul 06, 2017 06:20

Colqhoun wrote:
A friar is a bad solo character because you have no speed and no stealth. Your 8 man groups will be few and far between. A friar shines in small man action and to be most effective you need some heals, 7 rejuv does not cut it.

I spec 48 enh 37 staff 25 rejuv 6 parry


It's kind of weird you said in your reply that going 48 enhance would get you groups, yet then say 8 man groups are few and far between...? If there's a Friar, Cleric, Merc and Armsman all LFG and the group already has a Sorc/Minstrel/Cleric, they'd STILL take the others over the Friar 9/10 (unless it's a guild group or friends). It doesn't matter what spec you are; if you went 50 rejuve do you magically think it's going to make you replace a Cleric? You may as well cater to the class' strengths of being a dodge-tank.

It's like I said (and my Signature eludes to): Friars aren't the "meta" for either heals or for Melee on Uthgard. Their kit more or less makes them great 1vs1 dodge-tanks with the ability to heal and self-buff (and give base buffs and resists). No Determination makes them crap if you're fighting an enemy that has more then one sort of CC and your purge is down. No reliable snare or stun makes them rather crappy peelers. Rejuve line goes down the poop-shoot if you're fighting someone that nearsights you, (and since it is a known overpowered ability in any decent 8-man fight I'd count on it effecting you). All those points spent in Rejuve go "poof" when that happens.

I can see the argument for the red haste along with the resists, but you're not going to convince me that going higher then 15 rejuve (for rez) is worth it. If a group grabs you for heals they are doing something wrong or there are literally no Clerics online (which rarely/never happens). Base heals work just fine for those absolute "oh crap" moments, and it's not like you're using your mana for anything else (you should be running mana regen pots if no Sorc buff on regardless as it lets you leave endurance chant running).

What kind of Small-man are we talking here, btw? You'd need a Minstrel (for the speed and utility) and/or Sorc (for reliable mezzing, caster speed and pet interrupt)... and likely a bruiser (so either Merc or Arms)... if you're backup heals I can *maybe* see that working with higher rejuve, but your smallman most likely has a Cleric... if you're trying to main-heal a 4 man as a Friar your group is going to be screwed regardless of the scenario IMO. (Anything more then 4 and is it a "small man" any longer?)

Come to think of it, in terms of a small-man healer, Friars are actually the worst for it this entire patch level... Shaman are 100% better (diseases/roots/endurance/spec-buffs), Healers are 100% better (stuns//celerity/roots/mez), Bards are 100% better (endurance/speed/mez), Clerics are 100% better (spec-buffs/pbaoe mez/stun), Wardens are 100% better (pbt/damage add/run speed) and lastly Druids are 100% better (pet interrupt/roots/spec-buffs). And that's not even counting realm abilities... (which utterly destroys a Friars contribution to a group makeup).

I love the class (I wish I had mained it when game was live), but damn if it doesn't really do anything great for a group taking that spot in one (at least on Uthgard).
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Simi - 50 Necro (ditto, farmbot)

djegu
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Postby djegu » Jul 07, 2017 03:55

looks like you didn't rvr that much with your friar, because there is so many false statement in your post.

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Aelred
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Postby Aelred » Jul 07, 2017 20:00

Colqhoun in absolutely correct. As a melee/heal hybrid, Friars are a difficult class to play in RvR, simply because of the high decision making skill required to be useful. If you're healing too much, you should have just played a Cleric, if you're meleeing too much, you should have rolled a Merc/Arms. It's finding that sweet spot in the middle that makes the Friar a strong addition to a group. Btw, that's a group that already has 2 Clerics. You should never be replacing one!

Friars work well in group comps that are low on casters, which see the Clerics taking more interrupt pressure. You have to dance between peeling (not as well as an Arms can), rupting and damaging (not as well as a Merc can), and healing when the Clerics are unable to. If you get rooted, then like Col said, you switch to bad-Cleric mode, but that can still free up one of the Clerics to go on the offensive, stunning and rupting in your place. I'm not going to lie though, getting rooted and nearsighted definitely takes you out of the fight (save Purge for that, IMO). Friars aren't perfect balanced, and the lack of certain abilities hurts, but if you play them as a hybrid, and don't attempt to outshine a dedicated class in its role, they are well worth it in certain comps.

I think the main reason Friars aren't meta at the moment is because Alb is mostly running 3-4 caster groups, where the Clerics don't need backup. In groups with 2 casters or less, I think the addition of a Friar is solid. I was running with Col a couple months ago in a 2xMinst tank group (not a super competitive comp, but neither is 4casters, IMO), and even though it was a rag-tag pug, and not all of us played our roles perfectly, it was a very resilient group, and we still won the large majority of our fights, especially against guild groups we arguably should not have beaten, haha. A Friar is irreplaceable in a comp like that, and while it may shine in small mans, you shouldn't discredit how effective it can be in an 8man.

Speaking of smallmans, find a Pally and Minst to group with, and you'll have the most fun trio on the server, IMO :) Sure, Sorc, Cab, Cleric is a lot stronger, but smallmaning without spd6 is a whole different game.

As for specs, I think Col's should be the default for Friar's on this server. Once you are higher RR, either respec 45 Enhance, 15 Rejuv (or less) and rest into Staff/Parry to become a solo/farmbot god, or... spec 48E, 33R, 30S rest 6P to further your hybrid smallman/group glory. :lol:

TL;DR Friars are good if you are.

Faltain
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Postby Faltain » Jul 08, 2017 00:03

djegu wrote:looks like you didn't rvr that much with your friar, because there is so many false statement in your post.


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Faltain
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Postby Faltain » Jul 08, 2017 00:20

Aelred wrote: I was running with Col a couple months ago in a 2xMinst tank group (not a super competitive comp, but neither is 4casters, IMO), and even though it was a rag-tag pug, and not all of us played our roles perfectly, it was a very resilient group, and we still won the large majority of our fights, especially against guild groups we arguably should not have beaten, haha. A Friar is irreplaceable in a comp like that, and while it may shine in small mans, you shouldn't discredit how effective it can be in an 8man.


How is it "irreplaceable" when another Cleric or a Mercenary/Armsman would've added more if they were in the slot and played as effectively depending on their group role? Cleric would've healed better (instant heals for emergencies > anything a Friar can toss out), and the tanks would've been a ton better then the Friar at either pushing or as peelers... the line of thinking that they are "irreplaceable" doesn't make sense to me.

Again, I loved my Friar (it was fun being something off-beat and hybrid-ish and I felt like I could do a ton more things then a "pure" class could), BUT ... on this server (and this patch level in particular), they are just sorely lacking compared to other options. And my point about getting groups because your friendly with people (or because there's noone else to group with) stands. If you guys had your choice, you WOULDN'T have likely grouped with a Friar don't lie.

Speaking of smallmans, find a Pally and Minst to group with, and you'll have the most fun trio on the server, IMO :) Sure, Sorc, Cab, Cleric is a lot stronger, but smallmaning without spd6 is a whole different game.


Why wouldn't you run with a Cleric in that small-man? They'd be able to give spec buffs to the Minstrel/Paladin + Minstrels pet, something the Friar couldn't do. They'd also give Bunker as well as instant-heals (which are a huge thing to have in the back pocket of a healer). Plus they have another stun and a pbaoe mez. In small-mans CC can be huge in dealing with groups larger then your own. Friar simply lacks in that department.

TL;DR Friars are good if you are.


A good player playing a Cleric/Arms/Merc (on this server) would bring more to their groups then an amazingly played Friar. Sadly it's going to stay that way too since the Devs have said there will be no balance changes.
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